Comments ~ 2002: August

Comments from August 2002

Box On
Concerning the Nationals Picture with the box so close. Hope I'm not being too cynical here, but what was the point of the big monster Daily Herald sign on the front of the box that only the few hundred in the Organ stall could see. Could it be that pictures were only taken from this angle, and any other news papers wanting to cover the contest would have to use this pic that had "Daily Herald" emblazened on it". hmmmmmmm, maybe the position of the box wasn't down to getting a better sound quality. I suppose we'll never know.

Just my thoughts

Mark Arnold

4BR Reply:
Oh you are cynical Mark!! Newspapers trying to put in a bit of free advertising - what will they think of next - big screens above the stage at the Albert Hall??!!

Still - it does show that the box has been closer to the action on more than one occasion and even with the big sticker on the front, the sound quality still would have been an improvement on the position of the box in recent years.

Wingates Hoax
I am a member of Wingates band and would like to thank you for the way you have dealt with the hoax. It is much appreciated as Wingates is once again trying to establish itself as a top brass band force and the last thing we needed was this .........thank you and keep up the good work

p.s more news on Wingates now and again as well please thanks.

And again
With regard to the announcement of the untimely demise of Wingates Band, the band will be making an official reply in due course.

What I can say though is that the band is alive and well, has money in the bank and is looking forward to celebrating its 130th Birthday next year. I am not on the committee but may well be the conduit by which the band communicates back to yourselves.

In advance of an official communication can I ask you to vet the source of your story since there is obviously some mischief going on here that does no one any credit.

Andy, Principal EEb Bass, Wingates Band

4BR Reply:
Thanks both. We think we have learned a valuable lesson here at 4BR - trust ain't what it used to be, and that's a great, great pity. As we have said before, we can only apologise for any embarrassment caused to Wingates, but it is an even greater shame that there is actually someone out there who wishes to do something such as this.

We hope to be able to report on great things for Wingates in the future - and that someone has got hold of the nasty little so and so and given them something to remember!

Sparke of Delight!!
I always enjoy visiting 4BarsRest and was delighted to hear from your correspondent that Philip Wilby and yours truly have 'had our talents sucked dry' and 'have nothing fresh to offer' (!)

I can't speak for Mr Wilby, but I think I'll take up gardening

Philip Sparke

4BR Reply:
Thanks Philip - although we certainly don't agree with all the comments that are sent to the 4BR Comments page! Check out our recent feature on composers though and you might be surprised!

Dear 4BR,
Just been to the site to see the list!
I'm honoured and in great company!

Philip

Where are the predictions?
Are you going to make predictions for the lower section finals? I can't recall how accurate the predictions for the areas were but they did provide some interest!

p.s. Brackley will surely better their last nationals appearance (24th of 25 in 1983 ! ) in the 2nd section.

Steve Anker
Brackley & District Band

Who are the favourites?
I was wondering who are the favourites for Torquay? I'm just curious! Hope u can help me out thanks

Rick Cowens

4BR Reply:
We will be making our usual dodgy predictions in time for the Finals in Torquay Steve and Rick. Can't remember how accurate the last lot were (not too great as we remember!), but it should give bands an incentive to do well and add a bit of fun into proceedings.

Look out for our coverage though - we hope to make it even better than last year and give even more pre contest coverage of as many bands we can get information on.

Celtic Connections?
Thank you for some thorough cd reviews etc. Are you going to make one on the new Celtic Connections from Kirklees. How about reviews on new music for brass band? There's lot of new stuff coming out both good and bad. I bet the major publishers would like your board of clever heads to give your views on the issues.

Thanks for a fun site with lots of exiting stuff for enthusiasts like myself.

Asger Nielsen

4BR Reply:
Thanks Asger - we'll check it out with Kirklees and see if we can get a "freebie" off them to review. Keep the compliments coming though!!!

Looking for a better position!
I am currently 1st Euphonium (Solo Euphonium seems a trifle immodest) with Penzance Silver Band, only recently appointed and very much a novice. I am planning to move to Bristol at the end of September and am wondering whether any of your readers could point me in the direction of a band looking for a euph player. The standard is not that important, although a healthy disdain for Frank Bernaerts music would be preferable! Seriously though, any band who could provide an instrument and tolerate my scratching away would be brilliant. Thanks very much!


Simon Phillips

PS. Good to see a little debate and discussion warming the blood through this bitter summer we're having.

4BR Reply:

Replies to us please - and we'll send them onto Simon - Make sure your band is not playing any Frank Bernaets though!!

Where are we?
I already asked what we have to do to enter your rankings. Now I see that the Belgian band Buizingen has a new entry. We won with Kortrijk Brass Band in Folkestone several times and are the longest remaining band in Belgium in the Championship section. Please answer me.

Lieven Maertens,MD KBB

4BR Reply:
We've sent your enquiry to our man on the stats machine and he will let us know where you stand at the moment Lieven. Don't despair though - keep up the good work and we are sure that you will get in the rankings.

Dobcross Concert
Sunday 25th August saw a charity concert, at Dobcross Band Club, given by All Star Brass raise £453 for Francis House Hospice.

The Band, organised by Simon Gresswell and Gareth Beckwith, comprised players from Brighouse & Rastrick,BT, Grimethorpe Colliery, Hepworth, Leyland, NTL Skelmanthorpe, Regimantal Band Of The Coldstream Guards, Sellars International, Willians Fairey, and Yorkshire Building Society. Gareth Pritchard was the Musical Director.

Their performance of Nimrod was dedicated to the memory of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, whilst the thoughts of the audience went out to the people of Soham.

The above comments may be of interest to your readers.

Regards
K.P. Greenhalgh
Treasurer,
Dobcross Silver Band.

4BR Reply:
Thanks Mr Greenhalgh for letting us know. Nice to see that players put themselves out to raise money for great causes. We are sure everyone had a great time and that a well deserving charity got some much needed funds.

We know where some old "Dykes" are!
In respect to the article on the 1972 Black Dyke Band.

Malcolm Turton still lives in Holmefirth now retired. Jack Brooke did pass away last year with over 40 ex members attending his funeral. David Pogson is now playing with the Diggle band near Uppermill in the Pennines.

Jim Shepherd has moved to Ripon where he is conducting the town band. Peter Lambert who was the President of the banding 1972 was actually the senior director of the Yarns division within J F & S. There was a boardroom shake-up in the late 1980's when Derek Gallimore the senior director of the weaving division became chief executive and managing director. Peter Lambert then left the company. I believe he now resides in Ripon.

Frank Berry is still active, playing golf in the Huddersfield area where he lives. I heard that David Bentley had a music shop in the Midlands - which town I do not know. Harry Greenwood is a member of the St. John Ambulance Association in Bradford. Peter McNab is still active, living in Low Moor, a suburb of Bradford.

Eric Bland who is 82 is still very active and living in Queensbury. John Slinger who married late is still living in Shelf Nr Bradford. After Brian Wood left the band Roy Newsome asked myself to try this instrument, but after a short time I gave it back so allowing Kevin to become the new principle horn. David Essex then took over when Kevin left to study at College.

Alan Holdsworth is still very much involved with conducting bands. Glyn Leeming is a dental technician living in Sowerby Bridge, Halifax. I took over from Fred Ellis as secretary of the band in 1991. Fred then went on to carve out a very successful career in textiles. He still lives in Queensbury and I understand plays when time allows with Queensbury music centre band.

For myself I returned to Clifton & Lightcliffe where along with my wife we formed the junior band in 1977. I am at present the secretary for the No 2 area of the National Association of brass band conductors. Having left textiles I work as a supply teacher of music in local schools.

In anyone knows the addresses or telephone numbers for any of the above I would be grateful if they would contact me as I am trying to reach as many as possible for the reunion on 23rd November. Sadly the current band has an engagement that evening in Bradford so will not be able to attend. When I set the date I understood it was free.

I hope this information is of use to you.

Regards John Clay.

4BR Reply:
Thanks John - For all those interested in the Black Dyke re-union, please look at the news article we did on the band and the re union. You can contact John on 01422 201875 or e mail him on familyclay@lineone.net

"Best Man" Copland
With regards to the Dyke personnel of 1972, I can tell you that Bass Trombone Ian Copland (not Coupland as on Photo notes), also went on to play for Versatile Brass for many years before returning to Dyke for a further spell.

I believe he has been out of banding for some years though continues to play in Theatres and has other "Show Biz" activities. He was my "Best Man" at my Wedding, and I at his. Although we have lost touch now he was a staunch friend for many years. It was mentioned that David Essex was Solo Horn at Dyke until Kevin Wadsworth joined. I did a recording with BD in the late sixties and Kevin was Solo Horn then, so David must have come after this. Perhaps Kevin returned after David's sojourn.

I noticed in your article about Ian Brownbill taking the top chair at Tymperley, that the previous Principal Cornet was Carl Bamford, and the MD is Graham Hetherington - Nice to know the old "Imps Mafia" is still in business !!

Anyway, great website. You work hard to stimulate controversy !!!
Ian C. Wilkinson

4BR Reply:
Thanks for letting us know about Mr Copland - he was an heck of a player. We wonder if he looks in on 4BR from time to time? As for the "Imps Mafia" - beware the horse's head in the bed.

What about Frank then?
We at the BTM Band think that Frank Hodges should have been included in the "10 most influential people in the brass band movement" article. Frank is what brass banding is really about, all the contests he plays a part in run like clockwork and are very enjoyable to perform at.

He is very approachable, always on hand to give advice and help and will go out of his way to solve any last minute problems to ensure that every band goes on stage. I am sure there are many other bands out there that feel the same!

Suzanne Cherrington
On behalf of the BTM Band

4BR Reply:
If there was a category for hardest working bloke in the banding world, then we are sure Frank Hodges would be one of the favourites to take the title. However, when it comes to influence, the workers never quite get a look in do they? People like Frank are the unsung heroes of the movement and it is quite fair to say, that without people like him, the brass band world, and contesting in particular would come to a shuddering halt. Then the "Big Wigs" would have something to fret about wouldn't they?

Charity begins at……?
I have recently taken over the MD's position at Fulham Brass Band in London. As with many lower section bands, funds are a problem. Can you put me in touch with anyone or point me in the direction perhaps of publications or organisations designed to help small organisations such as ours raise sponsorship money or look into other ways of fundraising.

Many thanks
Paul McLaughlin
Fulham Brass Band
pbmclaughlin@hotmail.com

4BR Reply:
Can anyone help this man out? There are plenty of Charity publications, including a Charity Digest and we think, some dedicated charity orientated magazines. Why not try the local library, we are sure they may be able to help more than we can at this moment.

Soham thoughts.
Thoughts and deepest sympathy to the parents and families of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. Holly Wells was a member of the St. Andrews Primary School Brass Band, Soham, Wicken Coronation Junior Band and Soham Majorettes. She played the cornet to about grade 3 standard and was very musical, helpful and conscientious. She also almost constantly smiled. She will be greatly missed.

From David Notley
assistant musical director, soprano cornet Soham Comrades Band and Holly's cornet teacher at St. Andrews primary School.

4BR Reply:
We can only add our deepest heartfelt sympathy to both families, from everyone connected with the brass band movement.

Besses "influential" Saviour
I read with pleasure your inclusion of Paul Hindmarsh in the list. Perhaps a little known fact is that about 1990 when we joined Besses O' th' Barn , the band was down to about 12 players and had withdrawn from the Open. Paul had just taken the job as conductor, and had also taken some stick from certain quarters for doing so.

It was Paul's love of heritage and tradition combined with outstanding musical expertise that instilled in the small group that existed the desire to carry on and not let the band disappear "with a whimper".

Yes we have still had our ups and downs since then but I can state without hesitation that without his personal interventions almost 200 years of history would have ended. So, from us personally, and from Besses as a band thank you Paul for giving us the desire to carry on fighting.

Dave and Jannine Aston

4BR Reply:
Paul Hindmarsh certainly deserved a place in our top 10 as he has been fighting against the forces of BBC "dumbing down" for many years. It is also nice to be reminded of his banding pedigree as well and the valiant efforts he made in helping to keep Besses on the road.

Harvey's "V" sign!!!
"Those Yorkshire and Northwest bands that normally don't qualify will have a better chance because the 'big boys' will be competing elsewhere."

Excuse me?!
Do those bands from Yorkshire and North West who fail to qualify each year automatically just deserve to qualify now because the bands they compete against are of a higher standard? ...em... naw mate! Or maybe we should just take out the 'big boys' and let the lesser bands compete for what is obviously a worthless contest anyway?

Why doesn't he suggest that we have a competition open to, say the top 20 bands in Britain. We could call it 'The Open' just as an idea. This would allow all the 'big boys' to compete on a level playing field. Or better still, why don't we create a new contest, comprising the top 20 Yorkshire and North West bands and call it the World Championships?
Joking aside, the Nationals are the Nationals - a regional based competition where the top bands from each area come together to compete. End of story.

And besides, if Real Madrid hadn't scored 7, they would have lost 3-0 to Eintracht Frankfurt. Just a thought to leave you pondering.
Lucy Robertson

4BR Reply:
You were going so well for us Lucy - until you came to the end!! Couldn't agree with you more, except the football bit. The National are the Nationals and long may they continue to be so. As for Real Madrid, Di Stefano, Puskas, Czibo and the rest at Hampden Park in 1960 - if they turned up with just those three players in the team they still would have won with ease!

Frozen Dyke
Nice to see your article on Black Dyke Mills in 1972. Although I don't know what happened to all the players on the record cover, I think I can shed some light on some of them.

David Hirst, David Horsfield, Colin Aspinall and Harvey Whitely all became members of James Shepherd Versatile Brass - Shepherd himself being the founder. Most of the other players stayed with Dyke for varying lengths of time - Frank Berry was on solo trom for at least another 5 years, John Clough staying on solo euph up to about 1990 and Derek Jackson also putting in many more years after the photo was taken. I think the same can be said of both John Slinger and Colin Hardy on baritone.

Others such as Fred Ellis became secretary and received the European Trophy on behalf of the band at the 1991 European Championships, Malcolm Turton and David Pogson were members for a few years with David becoming a very good flugel player for them, whilst David Essex remained on solo horn until the arrival of Kevin Wadsworth. I believe Jack Brooke died a year ago, but I think still played on the back row with the band until the late 1970's.

Hope this is of some use - many thanks for a great reminder of a great band.

Mr B. Bishop.

4BR Reply:
Thanks Mr Bishop - you seem to now more about the band than perhaps some former players! It would be great of someone at Dyke (past or present) could give us some additional information. Remember - great players don't just disappear away, they fade into the past in a controlled diminuendo………

PR and other ideas
"I've often thought about this and agree that a stronger representation of our top bands may be beneficial to both the contest itself and the listener. Obviously no system is without its flaws but perhaps the following ideas could be adopted (or even adapted) so that we can improve the quality, without increasing the size of the top section.

Firstly we need a 'pool' of our top bands, equal to the number of area contests (is it nine at the moment?) - ok, this is arguably flaw number one - who should they be? We could take the top bands in a ranking list, for example - that would be on merit and not solely geographical.

The members of this pool would compete at each of the various areas around the country (initially this could be decided by a draw and after that on a 'cyclic' basis). For example Black Dyke may compete at the West of England Area and YBS at the Midlands Area one year, or may be in the Yorkshire and North West in another. If the bands in the pool are good enough they will qualify. This would mean that our top nine would reach the final, PLUS one geographical representatives (or two, just as now, numbers can increase depending on the previous year's finals result)

Another flaw- the cost to these bands of travelling around the country -yes I appreciate that would be a problem. But in my experience, bands from Cornwall have, until recently, travelled to Bristol and further, to compete at their area, and that's probably a worse journey. However with a cyclic system the really long journeys would only be made in three out of the nine years and any enterprising organisation or contest organisers could use the presence of one of these 'big names' to organise a concert the following day to raise funds and to offset the travel costs to the band.

Membership of the pool would have to be reviewed periodically - those bands who have not qualified for two or three years would have slipped from their ranking position anyway.

The disadvantages of this system are:

• Cost to the bands

• Who should be in the pool (I will leave that to better minds than mine)

• The loss of the traditional rivalries at the Yorkshire area, for instance,(But it has been known for certain bands to forego their appearance, when on tours to distant lands anyway)

The advantages:

• Stronger finals line up (probably)

• Those Yorkshire and Northwest bands that normally don't qualify will have a better chance because the 'big boys' will be competing elsewhere (Just as in all the other areas one of the 'pool' will be present ,so in theory second place would be up for grabs if results go to form)

• Increased audience at the areas (who wouldn't want to hear Dyke, Fodens or YBS etc in full flow?)

• Higher standards throughout the country (I personally would relish the chance to compete against the said bands in my 'own backyard')

This is only an outline just to provoke some thought amongst us ' banders'. I know it's not without faults but any thoughts out there??

Aaron Harvey, Bodmin

4BR Reply:
Certainly a different view on the situation Aaron. Can't see the bands wanting to compete away from their Area somehow, even if on paper it could mean a supposed "easy" way to qualify for the Finals - money speaks louder than anything - especially prize money, so why travel half the length of the country if there is only £200 top prize on offer?

As for the "home grown" contingent - can't see them being too happy either if their chances are reduced further if the likes of YBS turn up on the doorstep.

Still - plenty to think about though.

Portside Observations
I have read with great interest, both your site's and your reader's comments, regarding the way forward for the banding movement in general. This, in terms of administration, repertoire, funding, etc. and would just like to add my thoughts (for what they are worth)! They are written with the 4BR ethos in mind - to challenge and provoke a response and reasoned debate from your readers and are the results of a very fine glass of Port!

Finally, I would add that I do not want to be regarded as "the prophet of doom", but these observations are made from personal experience over a long period.

INTRODUCTION
In the relatively short time that I've spent in banding, I've had the good fortune to perform at most of the major contests in the calendar (Nationals, Open and European) and in that 15 year period have noticed a dramatic downturn in attitudes, standards and vision of the British banding movement, which has contributed a great deal to the sad state that now prevails in our movement today.

CONTESTS
Our European counterparts have embraced the movement with a great enthusiasm and an insatiable desire to learn. Over the years they have cherry-picked all the good points that previously made their role-model UK bands successful and discarded the rotten ideas/attitudes that were on the negative side.

In Norway for instance, it is quite common to see bands finish a performance and jump straight off the stage (still in uniform) and sit down in the auditorium, ready to hear the next band's performance. Here, the vast majority of players have one sole aim in life, once the last note has finished - to get plastered in the nearest pub. Following the obligatory skin full, we are then treated to the ritual "we was robbed" and "it was all a fix", plus of late, quite vocal, aggressive and very public reactions to "duff" results. This all despite not having heard a single note from any other band!

PLAYERS
Players attitudes have not improved with time either. Band managers up and down the land I'm sure will nod in agreement when I say that far too many players nowadays, have very little thought of picking up a phone and even having the courtesy to their conductor and fellow band-players, of saying they won't be able to attend a particular rehearsal. In the modern age of mobiles, text, e-mail, etc. it doesn't take much, but they can't be bothered. More recently, this has also extended to jobs as well.

Whereas yesteryear players would make the effort, turn up for band covered in grime, in work clothes, skip tea, not see the other half and the kids, etc., etc. the lure of doing something else is far greater. With the pool of players around ever-decreasing, they are in the strong position of being able to say "So sack me", knowing full well that they are going to be hard to replace!

REPERTOIRE
Repertoire overseas, is viewed with far more open views, from both performers and audience alike and it is not uncommon even in entertainment contests to have a "serious" work performed and Test-Pieces (Songs for B.L., Theme and Co-operation to name but a few) which were met with real derision here, were accepted with far more acceptance - obviously not everyone will like pieces such as these, but we are in danger of alienating people like the Howarths and Heatons (the latter we did a good job of ref. Contest Music 1973 Nationals, ditched in favour of Freedom) from the movement for good.

Instead we opt to milk the talents of Wilby and Sparke dry over such a brief time, so that they have nothing new and fresh to offer. Let's speculate and think long-term and try new faces from outside the movement e.g. Karl Jenkins, John Tavener. Who knows, they might relish a new challenge and they can only say NO!

FUNDING
Bands have enjoyed the huge benefits of Lottery Grants for the purchase of instruments and for improving premises, but we need to pursue different goals over the next few years.

Why not pursue the Lottery for funding for better prize-money at Contests (we can't rely on the likes of Boosey's for ever), commissioning new repertoire, money for a full-time PR Officer and administration team for the movement, small one-off grants to cover the costs of concerts (hire of venue, publicity, guest soloist fees etc.) so that we can actually put to good use, the new sets of instruments and re-furbished premises. We have had a very substantial slice of the cake for Capital Funding, but now we must be thinking about ways of maintaining and perpetuating the movement.

CODA
The movement (ranging from Contest administrators through to Band Managers), is largely run by volunteers, who I'm sure have the movements best interests at heart and they have the thankless task of trying to keep the British banding public happy.

However, if the people at the foundations of the movement i.e. the players don't radically change their ways, roll their sleeves up and get stuck in, in all aspects, I fear we are likely to see this great institution die a rapid and painful death in the not too distant future.

Andrew Jones

4BR Reply:
Plenty of food for thought Andrew - and well thought out observations they are. Plenty that we agree with - it seems that the "bleeding obvious" is usually the last thing on peoples action list.

There are plenty of people trying hard out there - people at the BFBB for instance, but there still seems to be a lack of constructive long term planning within the movement as a whole. Until this is addressed, and some sort of coherent structure to the movement put in place things will continue to go down the same route.

Statto, Statto, Statto!
I have just printed off your article on the recent rules changes and have promised myself that I will read them, (Statto, I know).

Do you, (or anybody reading the site), know if the full set of rules are available online? If not, it seems that it would be a sensible idea. After all, virtually all new legislation passed by Parliament makes it onto the HMSO website. Given that most people seem to have access to the Internet or know of somebody who has access, it would be easier to access updates/proposal etc. online. Does the Registry have a website? If so, that would be the ideal place for it to be kept.

Perhaps I'm asking the wrong people but knowing what mighty influence you have in the world of Brass Bands, I thought I might try my luck!!

Ian Thomas

4BR Reply:
Did you really read our article Ian? Right at the bottom of the page we put the web address of the British Brass Band Registry www.bbbr.co.uk. Even though it's not quite complete yet, they have put in a real effort so that everyone will be able to see what rules and regulations they will now have to follow.

As to our so called "influence" - check out the article on our top 10 movers and shakers.

Not quite a Grand Granada
It is rather sad to see the standard of playing at this event somewhat denigrated. As one of those privileged to actually be there in the Kings Hall, Belle Vue I can only comment that it was thrilling to hear Grimethorpe with Elgar Howarth.....AND the other bands. It was an exciting innovation....even a revelation !

A little while later I attended a Grimethorpe concert when George Thompson conducted the band. It was still fantastic, and a pal and I can still see Brian Cooling (sadly no longer with us) playing "Showers of Gold". Those guys were fantasticplayers.

Younger bands persons should realise that players in the "old days" were probably self-taught, had probably "done a shift down the pit", or on the line in the factory, on the eve of a contest. Not for many the privilege of a few years' studying brass playing at a college. These days it is likely that a former "works' band" is comprised mostly of people who have had the benefit of music college tuition, or earn their living at a pc keyboard! Good luck to them......they are probably brilliant !

But older enthusiasts (like myself) can still recall brilliant players from the likes of Fairey Aviation, Barrow Shipyard, Munn and Felton's (my favourite band), Creswell Colliery, CWS Manchester, Morris Motors, Desford, etc. Many other bands have disappeared, but are not forgotten.

These days there does not appear to be the same allegiance to a band. At one time if you played for a top works band.....then you also worked there too.

And please don't forget that brass bands were so much more popular some fifty years' ago. Recently I read in the Daily Mail that the "top" bands can ask for £3,500 plus expenses for a concert. Maybe that is why we never see them in my part of the world anymore ! Worth every penny I am sure.

Oh......for the days of the Open in the King's Hall, Belle Vue......Sigh !

Dave Williams.

4BR Reply:
Sometimes the truth hurts Dave. We were talking about the first Granada, and not the subsequent ones where the standard really took off and the likes of Elgar Howarth really changed the perception of what a brass band was capable of playing. (By the way, George Thompson conducted Grimey at the first Granada - Elgar Howarth came along the following year).

As for the "working down pit" routine - we are reminded of the old Monty Python sketch of "we were so poor…" - there was a great difference between being employed as a banding miner and being a real collier.

They were brilliant players though - but the evidence of the LP doesn't lie. If in doubt, go to your local library and ask them to get you a copy - it makes interesting listening material.

Just for the record though, here's the list of the winners of the Granada title - 1971 - 1987.

1971: Cory - Major A Kenney
1972: Grimethorpe - E. Howarth
1973: Grimethorpe - E. Howarth
1974: Stanshawe - W. Hargreaves
1975: Brighouse and Rastrick - J. Scott
1976: Grimethorpe - B. Thompson
1977: Grimethorpe - E. Howarth
1978: Carlton Main Frickley - D. Stephens
1979: Fairey Engineering - W. Hargreaves
1980: Fairey Engineering - W. Hargreaves
1981: Grimethorpe - R. Farr
1982: Desford - H. Snell
1983: Desford - H. Snell
1984: Desford - H. Snell
1985: Grimethorpe - D. James
1986: Desford - H. Snell
1987: Britannia Building Society - H. Snell

Nationals Prescription
Your recent article on "Nationals Headaches" made some interesting points, but came to some conclusions not apparently supported by some of its main points.

The article discussed briefly what made the Nationals the most prestigious contest, and gave the title of "Champion Brass Band of Great Britain" and the fact that the contest is held in the Royal Albert Hall as primary reasons. Later, the article mentioned that the prize money is poor. If we take the prestige of a particular contest as a measure of how much a band wants to enter that contest, and if we note the direct relationship between the prize money on offer at a particular contest and how much a band wants to enter that contest, then we mustcome to the conclusion that increasing the prize money on offer at a particular contest effectively increases the prestige of that contest.

The combination of the facts (1) that prize money plays a part in effective prestige, (2) that the prize money on offer at the Nationals is poor and (3) that every band wants to be in the Nationals, implies that the prize money is a negligible part of the prestige of the Nationals. If this is the case then why is there any reason to raise prize money? If this is the case, why is there a need for prize money at all?

You mention that the facilities are poor, but that the venue is part of "what makes the contest" (i.e., gives it prestige) so the contest is stuck with the venue. Why not, then, use the unnecessary prize money to hire some rooms near the Albert Hall for bands to rehearse in and for other things which cannot be provided at the Albert Hall? This would effectively improve the venue and therefore improve the contest (and therefore its effective prestige).

Given that you say the facilities are awful, then even if this investment was to provide only a middling improvement in the bands' experience of the day it would be worth it, since what is lost in attaining this is something which we have already shown not to add significant effective prestige to the contest. A further suggestion is to invest the money in youth development, which would improve future contests (if we accept that better players lead to better contests).

Anything which is done with the money currently being used for prize money at the Nationals that adds a reasonable amount of prestige to the contest must be better (based on your own statements) than using it as prize money, and hence your conclusion that prize money should be increased is not supported by your arguments.

Graeme McPhee, Wantage Silver Band

4BR Reply:
Some well thought out points and opinions Graeme, but we are not quite sold on the idea of bands playing for "prestige". It's cold economic facts that count, and although we take your point that the title itself is important, it don't mean diddly squat if it ain't backed up with some dosh. You don't see the tennis players at Wimbledon picking up their rackets for nothing do you, or the golf pros or snooker players - and they all say it's the winning the title that counts more… don't ever believe them - take away the dosh and they don't turn up.

As for the venue - remember Wembley. Glorious Wembley - you don't here much about it now do you? The cost of bringing the Albert Hall up to scratch would dwarf anything bands could sacrifice to lose. Still - thanks for an interesting contribution - it's nice to see others are thinking about the contest scene.

Top 10 eh?
Come, come guys. No mention of yourselves? You seem to be able to ruffle a few feathers everytime you go into print, so why aren't you there on the list. Modesty becomes you.

As for some on the list - I would certainly agree with the likes of Nick Childs, David King and the organisers such as Philip Biggs and Morris, but some of the others don't seem to have done much to improve our lot have they? Our man at the BBC eh? - now he's had a really effect hasn't he? (not!)

D. Holland.

4BR Reply:
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but as Winston Churchill once said of Clement Attlee - "He is a modest man - with much to be modest about". We don't go in for the self praise thing here. We stick by our list though - even of some of them are not the familiar "usual suspects". Are there others out there doing more for us then?

10 of the best - I think not!
You must be joking!!! Take out David King and Nick Childs and you've got the usual list of those who are in it for the money and the little bit of kudos they can get out of impersonating someone of importance. Bram Gay - don't make me laugh and who on earth is the chap from Boosey and Hawkes - some jobsworth if you ask me. What about the likes of Frank Renton or Richard Evans or dare one say it - the chaps from the Association of Brass Band Adjudicators! Now there is an influential group if ever there was one! They make the mafia look like the Woman's Institute.

Paul Johnstone Colchester.

4BR Reply:
An interesting choice Paul. We once spoke at the ABBA meeting about "Open Adjudication" and didn't find a severed horses head at the bottom of our beds the next day, so they can't really be that bad can they? You have to remember though that it is usually the "behind the scene" brigade that wield the real power in any organisation or movement, and the banding world isn't any different from any other in that respect.

Granada Re visited
Well done guys! Why don't others copy you and start telling things honestly? Granada Band of the Year was a brilliant idea that only became something of real note when the likes of Howard Snell and Elgar Howarth out their minds to it. If we had left it to the rest - God knows what would have happened - the banding world would never have got out of the Dark Ages!

Ian Peters

4BR Reply:
Thanks for the vote of confidence Ian. It seems the article has brought back plenty of memories for everyone - some good, some bad. John is someone who knows his banding really well and even he was surprised when he listened to the LP again. We owe the likes of Snell and Howarth a great debt of gratitude for all they have done - although it seems some bands are still performing most of the pieces on the record 31 years later!!

Granada Missed!
Is it 15 years ago that the last Granada Band the Year took place? I've got great memories of the contest - the players, conductors and the performances, and it was a great pity the contest ended. We may still got Spennymoor (for the time being), but that contest is a shadow of the Granada one. Remember Grimethorpe without a conductor, or "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly"? What about Peter Roberts playing "Memories" or my personal favourite, "Carnival Romain" played by Fairey under Walter Hargreaves - pure magic. What a loss the contest has been, and it has never been adequately replaced.

Mark Wilson.

4BR Reply:
It is indeed 15 years since the last Granada - but wasn't it interesting to see how the winning repertoire had changed in those 17 years that the contest run, and how much the winners got for their troubles. Some things have changed for the better, but prize money doesn't seem to be one does it? As for the future…….. lets hope Spennymoor can survive, the movement needs a premier entertainment contest.

Great memories though Mark - we wonder if others have their own favourites?

The Bad old Days!
Got to agree with you about the standard of playing at the first Granada. I've also got a copy of the LP and following your article I listened to it again. (The first time in over twenty years I think).

I didn't realise that the playing was as bad as John James said, but I must admit, he was right. Surely bands were better than this? I went to nearly all the Granada contests and enjoyed them all, but perhaps its right when they say the mind plays tricks on you the older you get. The playing on the LP was truly awful in places. Thanks for the reminder, but I now feel terrible that all my memories have been tarnished by the awful truth!!

Harold Lostock. Bury

4BR Reply:
Sorry to have ruined the memories for you Harold - but the mind does play tricks the older you get. So many of our so called "elder statesmen" seem to have permanent rose tinted spectacles - the "Fred Trueman Syndrome" we call it - but the proof is there for everyone to hear - in all its gory detail.

Granada was a ground breaking idea that benefited the movement immensely, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that at the time in 1971, bands had no idea of the concept of "entertainment".

A National Rethink needed
Thanks for the article on the Nationals - about time someone had a look at a contest that has been in need of change for a number of years. Don't agree with everything you say, but it's nice to know someone has the guts to put their ideas in print. Hope you are successful.

A. Howells

4BR Reply:
We didn't think everyone would agree with what we said, but thanks for agreeing that the contest does need a closer inspection. It's not guts, but common sense we think that the event needs a few tweaks here and there to maintain its status. Nothing too dramatic, but some simple and well thought out innovations would be welcome.

What about PR?
There will never be any chance of the Nationals truly becoming a top class contest like the British Open, until the contest becomes brave enough to rid itself of the weakest bands and get the best bands in the country to compete for the title. Yorkshire and Lancashire have the strongest bands, yet can only get a maximum of two bands each year to the Finals, whilst London and the North East get the same.

Why not have some sort of proportional representation to ensure the best bands get to the Finals - it would make things so much fairer.

Lesley Abbots

4BR Reply:
Would the FA Cup become any better a competition of they decided that it was only open to teams from Yorkshire and Lancashire then? Don't think so Lesley, but we do take your interesting point about PR. Why not just let one band from each area qualify, plus the reigning champions and then see if there can be some sort of PR to make up the rest of the numbers? That would possibly be fairer and would possibly make the contest stronger. The Nationals should always reflect the whole country, but it could be made a little more "representative". Any ideas anyone?

Well Done Wales.
Totally agree with Colin Hogg (MD Ammanford band) that it was nice to see a mention of the National Eisteddfod of Wales. Also that it was disappointing not to see more bands competing. Not only are there generous travelling expenses but the prize money is pretty good (better than local contests in Wales) and to top it off more publicity for the competing bands than any other contest I can think of - live television (with repeats) with interviews and press coverage. However I have to take issue with the 'confusion' factor. The Eisteddfodau are a celebration of Welsh art, culture and language.

The Welsh language is very old, indeed there are examples of poetry written in welsh before the English language, as we know it today, came into existence. I think the Welsh should be congratulated on their success in keeping this ancient language alive. Any language is confusing if you can't speak it - so, like any well prepared holidaymaker knows, be prepared: get a phrase book or befriend an appropriate linguist or better still learn the lingo! I'm sure English only speakers would complain if, for example, a visiting Norwegian band in, let's say, the Pontins contest, insisted that all announcements be given in their native tongue as well as English!

David Batte

4BR Reply:
We know that the Eisteddfod is indeed a celebration of Welsh culture (although most of it is a celebration of a Victorian idea of what they thought was Welsh culture) - but it remains a very insular event in many ways. The timing of the event makes things difficult for many bands, and that may be the biggest drawback to getting more bands to compete. The question of the language is one we won't get too drawn into here, but we would like to think any celebration should be an "inclusive" event and not an "exclusive" one - only then will there be a greater understanding of the great things Wales and the Welsh have to offer - brass bands included.

Of Men and Nationals
Regarding your fascinating article about top contest composers.

You refer to Edward Gregon's Of Men and Mountains as being "criminally overlooked," but can anyone explain the reasons why.

I remember playing this as an Area test piece - was it 1993? - and found it one of the most rewarding works imaginable to both rehearse and perform.

I have a recording of this work, which I frequently play, and there is absolutely no doubt that it would stand the test of time in today's contesting field.

The All England Masters is rightly acclaimed as one of our most innovative contests, so what about an airing maybe next year at The Corn Exchange?

Cruelly, it is arguably the most neglected of all major test pieces over the past ten years, but I have no doubt that it would be a major winner with audiences and players alike. It is Gregson at his finest.

Wasn't there a story in the band press many years ago that it was pulled from Nationals consideration because it was too long? I am sure the reasons run a little deeper than that, but it would be interesting to know if anyone can shed light on its demise.

Andrew Baldock, Rogerstone, Newport

4BR Reply:
Thanks for reminding us about Men and Mountains Andrew. There was a rumour a couple of years ago that Gregson's work was indeed lined up for the National Finals but was dropped due to it being to long in length. Mr Gregson by all accounts was not too impressed and it is alleged, stated that he would not be writing anything else for any banding contest in future because of it.

Don't know how true that all is, but it could account for why we haven't heard more from the man at the Royal Northern - or is it perhaps he's got his hands full trying to deal with all those allegations of sexual shenanigans amongst his lecturing staff? Who knows?

Confusing Welshmen!
It was nice to see some mention of the National Eisteddfod. You where right, it was very confusing on the actual day. I conduct Ammanford Town Silver Band and we came 2nd to Burry Port. ( Rhydaman is the Welsh Name for Ammanford ! ) I only knew that we came 2nd when the Welsh speaking members of the band cheered! Never the less, it was a great day out and just a shame that there were not more Welsh bands there.

Colin Hogg

The points where:
Burry Port 190
Ammanford 189
RAF St Athans 186
Mal Brownbill was in the Box.
It was all live on s4c TV ( the Welsh Channel 4 )

4BR Reply:
Thanks for letting us know Colin. There was little "English" news of the National Eisteddfod brass band contest and we tried in vain to get some information from the dedicated website without luck. We managed to get the results from the "Western Mail" newspaper and that is why we didn't have the points or adjudicator's name.

We are very proud of our culture in Wales, but we are so bloody awful in sharing what's good - perhaps the "insular" attitude of the organisers ie, such as the results announcement should change - then perhaps more bands would attend.

The adjudication process - one man's answer
Much has been written recently about the relative merits of our adjudication system and whether to award points or not.

With a few notable exceptions, most adjudicators seem to write precious little which is of actual use to bands in the aftermath of a contest. It is rare to find constructive criticism as to the areas bands need to work on in order to improve their results and standing, indeed I have been often mystified as to how such marvellous comments relates to a bands position.

It is a rare individual who can write about what they've just heard whilst simultaneously listening critically at the same time to an ongoing performance (if such a beast exists), yet it is frequently obvious that this is exactly what a lot of adjudicators do because often fine playing immediately following a slip or mishap is often left un-noted.

Awarding points is not really the issue. Points are merely a more scientific mechanism by which you can award ranking. How many times have you seen the original points score 'tipex'd' out on your remarks?

I would ask a question of adjudicators: when you judge, how much influence does the interpretation of a piece have over the result? Should we be trying to recognise technical excellence in the playing - or ranking a conductors personal musical preferences as to the choice of tempi, balance and other effects? (Remember the Yorkshire Open on Primavera by Bryan Kelly (who was also the adjudicator) - he opened his post contest comments by saying that he felt that many conductors had taken liberties with his piece and that the prizes had been awarded to those performances that were closest to his preference as to how the music should be played, regardless of how well those other performances were played…) In my opinion we should be judging the quality of performance - and nothing else.

OK, so how do we solve this dilemma? We aren't going to please everyone, but I believe that every adjudication should follow a preset framework that adjudicators have at least to comment on (if not to score on also). Save for those memorable performances by the elite bands (i.e. a VERY small minority of contesting bands) it is not sufficient to simply say - performance A was better than performance B. Why was performance A better than performance B? What elements of performance A made it superior to performance B?

I'll suggest a framework to start off with:
1: ensemble
2: intonation
3: 'top of band' - cornets
4: 'middle of band' - flugel, horns, baritones
5: 'bottom of band' - euphs, troms, basses
6: percussion
7: soloists
8: band sound

(all the above broken down by movement if appropriate).

Let us now say that 25 points can be awarded in each category. These categories should be judged not against other performances, but against perfection - and hence a judge should score and publish the points (to the contest controller) after each performance. It should not even enter the judges mind as to whether performance A was better than performance B. Further I would rule that once the scores are released the judges should not be permitted to retain a record of them.

Only in the event of a tie where prize money, promotion or relegation is at stake should the judge(s) have a casting vote.

In this way we should see a reduction in the influence the draw has on a result (it is very much the case the early draws are a disadvantage). It is not this though, but the fact that over a series of contests bands will see emerging trends in their own results. They will see that their ensemble is consistently poor, or their intonation is consistently poor - it will give them something to work on over a longer period, based on results gained in multiple contests. Ask any statistician - the larger the sample the more accurate the results that those statistics show. We're merely applying this in a pragmatic way to band contests.

I would suggest that currently adjudicators tend not to structure their thoughts but simply to react to performances (we are making music after all) and then to try and say 'performance A was better than performance B… It get's hard 20 performances later - and this does lead to strange results.

We are a movement - the brass band movement. Currently this term is an oxymoron - we need to do something about this, so constructive and forward looking initiatives by contest organisers are a must if we are to move forward.


Andy Wyatt

4BR Reply:
Thanks Andy. Lots of interesting points that you raise - some we agree with and some we don't, but it would be interesting to see what others may think. We know it's an old chestnut of a topic, but original ideas would be welcome!!

Philip Wilby and the Rolling Stones?
So you put Ph. Wilby before E. Gregson and R.Simpson! Naturally it's your choice and everybody his opinion. But I must say that for me it's totally incomprehensible: I would easy switch all the music of Ph. Wilby for one single bar from Connotations or Energy! All the same the music needs some cohesion and some structure: is really some structure in Paganini Variations? I always considered the music of Wilby like musical jokes and for me your choice is like to put The Rolling Stones before Bela Bartok or Stravinsky in the 20th century music!
Best regards,

D. Zumbrunnen, Suisse

4BR Reply:
Thanks Daniel. We stick by our choices and we do feel Philip Wilby has been one of the very best composers eve to write for the banding medium. Seems you don't think so - which is OK, but to compare him with Mick Jagger and the boys ….. come on. We for one would love to hear what "Little Red Rooster" would sound like for brass!

David King wins Silver at the Commonwealth Games!
Despite the heavy rain in Manchester on Sunday, spirits were not dampened among the 300 players who appeared at the Commonwealth Games Closing Ceremony.

The band, elegantly conducted by David King, was made up of players from bands across the North West and were shown playing The Manchester Fanfare, composed by Goff Richards for the occasion, to herald the arrival of speakers to the platform. Following that, the band played Introduction and Largo by Handel while the Commonwealth Flag was lowered and the BBC showed highlights and lowlights from the past 10 days.

Each member of the band received a silver commemorative medal specially produced by the Royal Mint and their names printed in the souvenir programme.
One person who put a lot of effort into giving the band members the opportunity to play at this once in a lifetime event is Shirley Woodward of the NWBBA who kept everyone informed and ensured everyone knew about rehearsals etc.
A very proud Shirley was lucky enough to be given a ticket to go into the stadium to watch the band perform.

The whole occasion was fantastic and the atmosphere in the stadium was electric as the crowd cheered the band as they marched (quickly!) to form up at the bottom end of the stadium and again as they left.


From Kath Thacker, Haslingden and Helmshore Band
If you want any more info you can contact me on 01282 446100 or email me on kathtuk@yahoo.co.uk

4BR Reply:
Thanks for letting us know Kath. The Games were a great success (even Wales won plenty of gold, silver and bronze) and the way in which the closing ceremony was produced was first class stuff - very professional and with a hint of self-deprecation in the form of the Morris Minors.

It was nice to see the banding fraternity represented by the players and David King, and we understand all of them were presented with a silver commemorative medal for their efforts in the rain. Congratulations to everyone - it shows that not even that idiot savant David Beckham and his Liberace track suit and willingness to spoil an occasion by crass commercialism can spoil the memories of a great occasion for everyone in the North West.

London Trumpets/London Troms?
I have just read your review on the London Trumpet Sound CD. Have you ever listened to the London Trombone Sound? It is excellent, and that comes from a tenor hornist not a trombonist. As with the Trumpet sound, the CD is on the short side but is still excellent, especially 76 Trombones played by 76 Trombones!!

Liz Boulby, Yeadon Old & Otley Brass Bands

4BR Reply:
We haven't Liz we are afraid, but we don understand that it was released a little while ago. We'll try and get a copy or two and if it is anyway as good as the trumpet lads, then it must be pretty impressive. Just hope it is a bit longer than 44 minutes though!

YBS - worth the price alone!
Having just bought the 2002 European CD from yourselves (and what a painless experience that was-well done!), I am totally overawed with the playing on the said disc. David King and the band really pulled it off with the Concerto Grosso, in my humble opinion, it is one of the very best performances of any test piece I have heard (live or otherwise) and it really shows English banding at it's best when a great performance of Revelation is overshadowed in such a fashion. I had never heard of Piet Swerts but I hope we all do again soon! Chain is a real tour de force for band, and I must disagree with your view that the final section is a bit too repetitive. It really does add to the overall tension of the piece but I suppose that not every band played it with such a degree of control both dynamically and rhythmically. Excalibur, another great bit of writing from Jan Van der Roost and really well played by Pas de Calais, a bit more from the pen of Mr. Van der Roost as well please! The other items on the disk are all of a very high standard as well, but for me Concerto Grosso was worth the price of the CD by itself!

Lee Woodward

4BR Reply:
Thanks Lee. We would agree with your comments about the Euro CD 2002 - and they have been selling like hot cakes! The standard of playing from YBS and the rest of the featured bands is top class and shows once and for all that the European brings out the very best in the competitors - it was some weekend!

The Last Ballet
As I read some of the comments on 'your comments' today, I also encountered a question of ms. Nicola Hughes who is looking for a recording of 'Ballet for Band', written by Joseph Horovitz.

I myself played this testpiece back in 1992 with brassband the Waldsang at the Dutch National Finals. Because it was new to me then, I started looking for a recording as wel.
Here it is:

label: Merlin Master Brass
band: GUS Band
conductor: Keith M. Wilkinson
titel of cd: 'Arnold - Howells - Rubbra - Horovitz
cd-nr.: mrfd85089

Erwin Dijkstra, Soli Brass Leeuwarden
Friesland (Netherlands)

4BR Reply:
Many thanks Erin - we are sure now that Nicola has a CD rack full of "Ballet for Band" - No more please everyone!!!

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