Comments ~ 2006 October

In support of 4BRDU; Well Done; Brasscast; Let's read...; Not the Wupwup festival; Fair; Brass Band world becoming smaller; Questions need to be asked; Concerned; Debating Etiquette; Eric's Defense; Positive comments; Narrow minded; People skills; Great C

In support of 4BRDU

I know first hand the attitude to 4BR in the UK: bands just can't get enough of it. They love it or they hate it, but they never miss it.

I sincerely hope that we get to a point in Australia and New Zealand when our movement relishes the diversity and sometimes critical views of passionate players, conductors, journalists, administrators and the public. As Peter Younghusband said, this is why the movement has evolved so successfully. At the moment, unfortunately, anything other than sugar-coated platitudes elicits a "what would you know" response.

Bands don't have to compete against each other to improve, but they do have to constantly improve themselves. Sometimes the best help can be from an impartial observer, even if we think we know everything! My dad taught me that you can learn something from everyone, and often you learn the most from those you despise.

Chris Bowman
Adelaide

Well done

Well done and congratulations to Amanda and the 4BRDU team for stimulating this fiery debate. Not only is it very entertaining, but it opens up the floor to discussion on a few very important issues. Keep up the good work.

PS You think 4BRDU are harsh with their comments? You should see some of the comments we have to put up in the UK. We don't always like them, but we cop them on the chin and move on. And on the topic of adjudicators, you will never satisfy everyone with just one adjudicator. The only way you can have a more objective result is to have two or three adjudictors (but even then you'll have your moaners).

Rob Kavanagh
Manchester UK

Dear 4BRDU team,

Thank you very much for the hard work you do with your site. It is a great source of information about bands from back home! Your mother site also is a great source for news from around the UK (mostly!). As a reader, I really do appreciate the commitment you have to the banding community.

I have attached a press release to this email that I hope you will read, and keep on file for any possible articles you may be considering. I am sure that we would have some bands contact us for inclusion on the podcast as a result of anything you were to publish!

Also, I hope you don't mind, but I quoted some of Alexandra Kerwin's review of the NZ youth band's CD on last weeks podcast. I did tell listeners to go to your website for more details. A well written, and very detailed review. Thank you very much.

Many thanks
Lucas Burns
Brasscast

4BRDU Reply:  Thanks, Lucas.  We have uploaded your press release in the news items.

Let's read...

Re Ballarat, adjudication and the whole shebang. Everyone go away, read or re-read Stephen Coveys' 7 Habits, Part 1, pp15 - 45

As I am. Then come back and let's talk.

Paul Gunning

Not the Wupwup Festival

I write with reference to Mr Sykes' letter. I think I must have read a different article to that which you question Mr Sykes. I note that the writer of the article suggests none of the three bands came to terms with the work that's hardly having a go at Hawthorn surely?

You seem to be advocating a style a journalism that reflects encouragement only? Maybe you would like all participants to receive a "Thanks for coming, we really appreciate it" certificate, together with a lolly for each player. Goodness me, this is brass banding Mr Sykes, not the Wupwup Festival. How do you think brass banding has reached such a high standard? I would suggest that brass banding offers the highest standard of amateur playing over all other music mediums. It didn't attain this by issuing warm fuzzy certificates simply for turning up!

As for 4BRDU requiring an authority to comment on the event. Are you living under a stone? Do the daily newspapers require an authority to comment on sporting events, current affairs et al? It's called journalism Mr Sykes.

You state that your organization entered the Ballarat competition because of the other two bands and stature of the adjudicator. Obviously you are more privileged than most learning of other attendees before submitting your entry.

I see you wanted your performance to be judged by the adjudicator only. Maybe you could ask for next year's contest to be held behind closed doors. That way, the "Internet site," together with any members of the public who also may have an opinion, to which they are apparently not entitled, will be denied this opportunity.

So detailed criticism by anybody other than the adjudicator is not welcomed by you then? Might I suggest you consider relocating to North Korea. From what I understand, nobody is allowed to have an opinion there. An ideal place for your band to perform I would have thought.

Peter Younghusband

Fair

I have read alot of comments about the Royal South Street Competition/ Victorian State Championship's held over the 14th and 15th of October. In particular, the results of the A Grade Bands. I know people have their opinions about who should have won, but can we all just accept the fact that Major Eric Anderson's opinion was that Hawthorn were the best band on the day, and that people doing the retrospective for 4BRDU had different opinions.

I listened to the A grade bands on Saturday Night in Ballarat. I haven't played full Time in an A Grade Brass band before, so I didn't really know the playing nature of an A Grade Test in terms of where a mistake would be likely to happen etc etc, but I knew what I wanted to hear. For those interested I had the bands placed

1. Footscray Yarraville
2. Kew
3. Hawthorn

Based on who I thought were the best band, and I was majorly looking for musicallity, and making me jump out of my seat crying for more!

Do I think Hawthorn were the winners? No. Did Hawthorn Win? Yes. Do I think the comments made in the retrospecives were harsh/unfair. Not particulaly, again, it was one person's opinion on one day.

Everyone in the audience is entitled to their opinion. Unfortunately, there is only one (sometimes two or three) man/woman's opinion at a contest that determines the result, and at South St, it was Major Anderson. Everyone else gets to react to them.

I thought the comments made by 4BRDU for the Junior and D Grades (I had vested interests in these grades) were well written and very fair.

Ben Milne
1st Trombone
Hyde Street Youth Band

Brass Band World becoming smaller

That's a fact... there was a day when I would eagerly await the lastest Black Dyke or Enfield citadel LP. Stories of these ledgendary outfits used to be regaled by those "in the know", soaked up by us eager to hear the latest stories.

Things are clearly different these days. A CD can be ordered one day and on your doorstep overnight. The stories are virtually happening and on the internet within minutes.

Now to Ballarat....

Ballarat almost passed me by again without me so much raising an eye brow..... Usually its a 1/2 page in a band magazine that I get too eventually (maybe). Ho hum!

BUT the combination of the 4BRDU commentary and the accompanying letters certainly rasied the profile of Ballarat this time for me. I was entertained!

I have read on 4BRDU with great interest the results and goings on of the recent VBL championships. I want to say I for one appreciate the retrospectives and comments made on OUR behalf by those offering them.

The whole thing became a little more clear to me than the usual list of results. I learned just a little more about a number of Victorian bands that I didn't know before.

I for one found each retrospective balanced, offering both positive comments alongside frank opinion where it may have been warranted. I appreciated this transparent reporting.

I also note a number of people commenting in a negative and inflamatory way about the retrospectives.

Even these in their own way add to the drama of the whole package...so I don't critisize them. Even the gentleman who was compaining about the inflamatory comments made by 4BRDU (I'm still looking for those) and in turn made several in own letter.

But if you are one of the people decrying the methods and writing syle of the 4BRDU team... GET USED TO IT. It's part of the way things will be done from now.

Why... because that's what WE brass band junkies want. And in this arena it's NOT about what you want...it's all about US the consumer!

If you don't like it...don't read!

Don Callaghan
Wollongong

Questions need to be asked

I would like to thank 4barsrest for its fair and accurate account of the Footscray Yarraville City Bands performance at last Saturday's State Championships. In particular, your non patronising, balanced commentary of our playing was greatly appreciated. As we were the middle band, I was unable to hear the other performances. However, I did feel that your commentary, taken in the right context, discussed all band's strengths and weaknesses fairly and equally. And, as I am sure you intended, could be a useful tool for future performances.

Until now, Footscray has made a deliberate decision to distance themselves from the chest beating and nonsense regarding competitions and the relative standards of other bands within our state. 

We are musicians. Whilst we strive for excellence within our own very small sphere, it is important to remember that our endeavours will never solve world hunger or bring about lasting peace.

Paul Gunning is correct in questioning the quantification of art. While it is part of the brass band culture to pursue this seemingly contrary competitive musical ideal, if the end result is the development of banding and the nurturing of a healthy banding fraternity then the end SHOULD justify the means. 

However, when bands do choose to compete and invest so much time and effort into a competition, it is important they feel RESPECTED for their efforts. Every aspect of a competition including music choice, adjudication venue etc need to be completely transparent and above board. If there is a PERCEPTION that choices and decisions made are contrary to the best interests of all bands involved, then questions need to be asked regarding the future of banding in our state.

Eric Anderson was put in an untenable position on Saturday night. He does not deserve the vitriol that has been printed over the last week. Whether you agree with his choice or not, it was his decision to make. Graham Lloyd is correct in stating that coming first shouldn't be the "be all and end all" however Footscray is not of this mindset and I very much doubt that Kew would be either.

We wish all bands well and congratulate Peter Sykes and the Hawthorn Band for their win on Saturday night. Congratulations also to Mark Ford and the members from Kew and, a particular thanks to Irene from the VBL who enabled us, through her positive and fair approach, to perform.

Phillipa Edwards
Musical Director
Footscray Yarraville City Band

Concerned

In relation to 4bars and its "Retrospective" style:

I am referring to the retrospective that appears on this site in relation to A Grade at Ballarat.

For all things "British" that so many of the banding community in Australia appear to hold dear to their hearts, the style of writing on this site appears unlike that of its English parent site. I have observed a journalistic style in recent months on "Down Under" that represents more a "Critique" than "Retrospective." My observation is that the parent site's retrospectives appear to have a more broad brush approach, a commentary in general without getting into specific criticisms of players/sections/bands, or adjudicators. A style of journalism that reflects encouragement, focusing on a more interpretive and global approach to music.

Had 4bars written in the style of their parent site, I would suggest none of the recent postings would have occurred. In writing a "Critique" in the manner posted I have to ask "Under whose authority did 4bars attend the competition and write their judgments?"

You see, the fundamental thing here is that our organization entered the Ballarat competition because of the other two competing bands and especially the stature of the adjudicator. We are not interested in taking six weeks out of an organizations very busy schedule to prepare for something when the adjudicator doesn't stack up. In this case we had an adjudicator with credentials. Our organization went to the competition to be adjudicated by the appointed adjudicator. We were not performing at Ballarat to receive a secondary adjudication to be listed on an internet site.

Reviewing a competition is fine, but a detailed criticism written by anyone other than the appointed official, no matter how well intentioned, undermines the integrity of that official and the competition as a whole and I have witnessed this precise undermining during the past seven days.

Your writings toward the adjudicator at Ballarat incensed me. During the past 11 months I have witnessed criticism, condemnation, complaining and judgment within banding and all under the guise of "Everyone has the right to an opinion." Yes, everyone does have a right. There is however a basic flaw continually demonstrated within the writings here and on other sites. Many of the opinions demonstrate "All care, no responsibility and no accountability," a lack of character and integrity.

I fully conquer with Graeme Lloyd's writings and it would be a sad day if we were to lose men of Graeme's and Eric's standing as adjudicators. Why should they bother to adjudicate for us if their word is to be de-edified in questionable "Critiques."

The banding community is very small and particularly in Victoria, where it has not progressed very far in thirty years. It concerns me that with the type of inflammatory opinions and writings that occur, we may in fact lose more good people.

The style of retrospective written here, not adjudications, have left me with ill thoughts. I am competitive by nature, enjoying competition and being adjudicated by people I respect. These secondary non "British" critiques have me questioning whose stage I may or may not compete on next.

Fraternally yours,
Peter Sykes

4BRDU Reply:  Thanks, Peter.  Not quite sure which articles you have read on 4BR, Peter, but we suggest you consider reading:
 http://www.4barsrest.com/articles/2006/art593b.asp, and 
http://www.4barsrest.com/news/detail.asp?criteria=masters+live&year=2006&Submit=find&id=3328, and
http://www.4barsrest.com/articles/2006/art579g.asp, and
 http://www.4barsrest.com/articles/2006/art558d.asp
I think 4BRDU were quite gentle in comparison, don't you?

Debating Etiquette

I would just like to briefly respond to a trend in the techniques of debate I've noticed surrounding the recent controversy over the VBL A-Grade results. I'd like to specifically address Graham Lloyd's comments.

No work, Graham, is objective. All work is subjective. The articles posted on 4barsrest all come from a subjective place. No matter what kind journalistic integrity one strives for, and may achieve, a publication will always have a ‘slant.' This is not a radicle notion, in fact it is one widely accepted in most arts and humanities fields.

We all have a right to our opinion. Amanda Casagrande was within her rights to post whatever she pleases in her retrospectives. The debate around free speech is a tricky one, I admit, yet it is not something that I think would come into dispute over a matter as straightforward as this.

In this same vein, I of course do not deny you the right to post your opinions here. If you feel that Eric Andersen was not fairly depicted and would like to defend him, then by all means. And you do have a strong point; they did fail to properly and comprehensively illustrate Andersen's background.

My point of contention with your comments, Graham, is your method of argument. I'm afraid the show-me-your-credentials "where do you get off?" angle just doesn't sit well with me. Amanda and her co-writers were completely in their rights to post a commentary of what they observed and thought at the contest. They did not write anything directly slanderous or inflammatory. The report was informal, casually written, and it was made clear that it was an opinion piece. Yes, they mentioned their difference of opinion with Andersen's there is nothing wrong with this. Frankly, if a 12 year old who'd been dragged there decided to post on their MySpace page that "they preferred Kew," that would be okay too. Their level of experience has nothing to do with their right to post a retrospective. In the critical world it is not uncommon for someone with no ‘artistic' experience to become a critic, and if they were met with a "could you do better? What have you ever done?" rebuttal then…well, honestly they would probably just laugh.

I was compelled to write this e-mail because this argument tactic is something I've noticed on the internet message board "spitvalve.com.au" as well. The comments made about Andersen got, to my understanding, decidedly nasty and were removed. I condone the decision to remove because personal attacks are, of course, never appropriate. Yet I noticed the people going to defend Andersen (namely a poster called "Eddy") used the same "what have you ever done?" tactic of defence. This is just not a strong defence. It's childish and shallow. The right way to defend Andersen is to re-iterate his right and position to adjudicate, and to perhaps voice your opinion to the contrary of others. The best way to ‘back yourself up' critically is not to give your own credentials but to show an understanding and command of the topic that you're talking about.

I implore all to think about the integrity of their arguments in the future, because as a reader I get so frustrated with this lack of this basic debating etiquette.

And before you ask "what have you ever done?" of me, I'll answer: it's just not relevant. My point remains clear.

Stefanie Kechayas

Eric's Defense

Well done Graham. I am glad that someone who is well respected in the brass band community has come to Eric's defense (although why some one with such high credentials needs defending is sad in itself). Eric conducted Preston and has adjudicated many band and solo contests over the years and regardless of people's own opinion they should respect this man's right, with all his musical knowledge, to make the decision he sees fit.

Yes I belong to the winning band, but I can assure you that my feelings would be the same if Kew or Footscray had won. For me the result was secondary, the fact that I made it thru "A Night to Sing" and was able to try to make something musical of it was the big achievment.

Congratulations to the three bands for having the courage to turn up at the contest and to be brave enough to tackle a piece that others wouldn't or couldn't. The fact that this year there were bands in A Grade is surely the most important thing, not attacking the reputation of the adjudicator.

Marianna Barker

Ballarat Bandits

I have played under, adjudicated with in a panel of 3, and had interesting conversations with Graham Lloyd.

I have also known Eric Andersen as a friend and colleague for around 20 years.

I too have been adjudicated by Eric whilst conducting several different bands, several times, and in 3 occasions out of 4 found his adjudication and comments to be spot on.

Always in adjudication, no matter how experienced or accomplished you may be a result for one reason or another becomes unpopular. ( I know from my own judging experience).

Often in these cases personal taste comes into play. I have different tastes to Eric certainly I know in interpretation of orchestral works, and I guess that if 100 musicians were to try and decide between a performance of Beethoven's 5th by two different orchestras both of a first class standard there would be a winner and a loser but certainly not 50/50 or 100/100.

Let's be fair, the job is a difficult one and Eric was employed to do that job. As musicians we more than most need to respect individuality of taste, otherwise we would have had 3 identical perfomances last Saturday,and that would be very boring!

Dare I suggest that many of the bad vibes post-contest are stirred up by relative Young Guns? I was much more hot blooded in my younger days, and even remember ringing an adjudicator after a contest to tell her what I thought of her result.

That was Barbara Stone, sometime conductor of the Hanwell Band in the UK. Hope if she is still around that I am forgiven.

These days I just think "C'est la vie" after an unpopular decision, and I never try to pre-judge or jump the adjudicator's gun. (If we gave them guns, just imagine the shortage we would have of conductors!)

These things happen, and in the big scheme of things are relatively unimportant.

What does matter is that contesting is a great bonding agent for bandspersons, and has over the years cetainly lifted the movement's standard as a whole let alone individual bands.

Win or lose, we should savour the moment, and the achievement of being there.

Kevin Morgan

Positive comments

Amanda & the 4barsrest Team,

Thank you for some very positive comments in your analysis of us and the other bands in D Grade. I found them extremely motivating, as we start to prepare for the Nationals in Melbourne. Your website is fantastic and you should all be congratulated on the time and passion you've put into covering events such as the State Titles in Ballarat.

Andrew Trewartha
Musical Director
City of Bendigo Brass Band

Narrow minded

To 4 Bars Rest Downunder,

I read with interest you comments regarding the recent Victorian A Grade Adjudicator, Eric Andersen. I note you mentioned he was a clarinet player, for some reason. You also mentioned, for some reason, that he was in some controversy in the NSW championships hinting that maybe he shouldn't be an adjudicator at next year's Nationals contest.

I also note you DIDN'T mention the many years he's been involved in brass banding as an adjudicator and A Grade conductor. I also notice you didn't mention the three years academic training he completed with distinction at the Royal Military School of Music in the UK. I also note you didn't mention his vast knowledge of the orchestral repertoire, concert band repertoire or brass band repertoire, or of the many years he spent in the Defence Force as a band officer or his stints as Commanding Officer of at least two Army bands, or his posting as the Commanding Officer of the Defence Force School of Music.

Now, as you decided to write a commentary of the contest, I'd be interested to know your experience and ability - including academic, that makes you such an expert on music and in a position to make the comments you did. Did you have the scores in front of you? Had you studied them? Do you understand the music, its form, harmonic progression, melodic structures, etc? Do you understand harmony? Compositional techniques? Have a grasp of correct tempi in relation to the music? Are you an expert instrumentalist?

Have you performed or studied overseas with distinction? Have you conducted A Grade brass bands? From your own article, "what would you know?"

As for Eric being a clarinet player, what a ridiculous and narrow minded statement/insinuation to make. I'm also a clarinet player with compositions and arrangements for brass band under my belt. Oh, and compositions and arrangements for concert band and many arrangements for orchestra, too.

Where do you get off making a statement like that as if a person is somehow musically incapacitated because of the instrument they play.

Being an adjudicator is difficult - but I don't think you would know that because I doubt you've ever been in a position to make judgements on performances in a capacity such as 'official' adjudicators do. If you had, you would realise the difficult position adjudicators are in and wouldn't have written what you did. If you want an 'audience' choice adjudication then introduce that into the contests...after all, TV has been doing it for some time and the ratings seem to be really good.

Eric gave his opinion on the performances as he heard them calling on over

35 years professional banding and music in general to form his opinion.

It's his opinion, that's all. He, like all of us, try to be objective but, the very nature of the job makes us subjective. Whilst brass banding insists on a first place there will generally always be controversy as the only people who, arguably, agree with the adjudicator are those who come first. The real benefit of contesting is the bands putting in the hard yards to get onto the stage to perform in the first place. This is followed by the adjudicator's comments which are designed to be helpful in the band's continued improvement plan. If coming first is the 'be all end all'

then that's the end of music making in my opinion.

Graham Lloyd

4BRDU reply:  Your comments are very welcome, thank you.  We do what we can to put ourselves in the best position possible to give as fair a critique as possible.  As for our creditials, these are listed briefly http://www.4barsrest.com/general/du_credits.asp

Conductors need excellent people skills

There are many opportunities for aspiring conductors of brass bands. The question, maybe, is whether conductors are prepared to do the hard yards in the grass roots of our movement. The obvious benefits would be the improvement of lower grade bands and development of vital conducting skills in a conductor's formative years. Might I also add that stick technique and musicianship are but two aspects of successful conducting. A conductor is first and foremost a leader, which requires excellent people skills.

Bring on a brass band chapter of ABODA (Association of Band & Orchestra Directors) in Australia (and maybe NZ?) to provide a comprehensive program of band leadership development.

Chris Bowman
Adelaide

Great Commentary

I would like to congratulate you on your fair and above all accurate commentary of the A grade event at Ballarat. It is certainly refreshing to see a no bullshit article without emotive or politically charged comment. Well done to you and your helpers, and I think this is a great boost to Australian banding to have someone like yourself who commits the time and money to attend these events and write them up as they happened.

Tim Curnow

Ballarat

There are one or two things I need to say about Ballarat A grade and competing in music in general.

For transparency, I am the Vice President of Hawthorn Band, but these are my personal feelings.

At the outset, Hawthorn Band have been through and so far endured some pretty tough times over the past 12 months. We are on our way back, and there's still a lot of ground to cover, we all know that. I considered our mere attendance at Ballarat this year to be a win; that was enough for me. The outcome was irrelevant.

Clearly, no one has won this competition. I did not hear the other bands play because of the draw so I have no perspective on the relative competency of the bands and so I draw no opinion on the outcome. Let me state that I was not convinced that any of my fellow Hawthorn Band musicians where able to state categorically that we played a "winning performance" when we left the stage on Saturday night, we are not stupid, and I understand many members of the other bands will also be feeling a little disillusioned by the process.

But this is my gripe: I have very little time for "music as sport" but I accept it as part of brass band culture. To be judged by an appointed individual who sits behind a screen and quantifies art is bad enough, but to be judged again by band aficionados who act as journalists and experts and publish their opinions on a number forums without my prior knowledge I just find very uncomfortable and patronizing. Maybe I missed something, but I simply was not aware that reviews of this kind (secondary adjudication) where on the way to 4barsrest down under. I feel like I need to wash my hands all the time, but the muck just won't come off.

Paul Gunning

What goes into a good show?

Fendall Hill's comments on performances are both inspiring and shocking.

There are many bands out there with their own idea of a "good show" and use the same format time and again.

Shame that the audience can be a little bored with this approach.

As a relatively new conductor (I've just entered my fourth year of stick-waving) this is one of the many questions I've tried to answer for my own band. Fortunately, I see myself (others may disagree) as the sort of person who loves to see fun, so my programming is always a little "varied" to say the least.

A perfect example was my first ever concert as a conductor. Six months after my first contest, I wanted to put on a full evening's worth of entertainment. A full evening (in my mind) was over 2 hours of entertainment.

That's a big ask for an MD - it's about 30 pieces give or take (depending on the style of music). It's an even bigger ask on my band to sit there and work.

So we "cheated" and called in some friends. We had a high school concert band, we had some soloists with piano accompaniment. We had a choir.

Plus, we finished the night with a massed item featuring the concert band and "the dream brass section" - with 4 tubas, 3 euphoniums, 4 baritones, 6 trombones, 6 horns and at least 15 trumpet/cornets..... well, it made the school conductor VERY happy in rehearsals!!

This left the band with 2 sets of about 30-40 mins. We played selections from tests, classic solos featuring guest artist Bill Barker, and some of our own members. We marched onto stage. And I got handcuffed by the drum major during a little piece of fun with choreography entitled YMCA.

The aim is to set a program that touches everyone in the audience in some way, and hope it's enough to come back. That night we sold two thirds out the local Entertainment Centre. Six months later, when combined with the US NAvy Seventh Fleet band, we were sold out.

Did it work??? I think so. We even had brass bandies come from Rocky for the event.

Our concerts are not about politics, or being elitist. We have one aim - please the audience and make them wanna come back. It's the KISS principle of concert planning - Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Chris Allen
Gladstone

Do It Again!

A couple of good points here. It seems that it is very difficult to get support from bandmembers at concerts organised by what as often seen as a competitior band, notwithstanding the high level of mateship that may exist. Similarly, getting people motivated to take opportunities as mentioned, seems as hard as pulling teeth sometimes.

A few months ago, I was at a concert given by the brass section of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra at a regional centre (Taree NSW) and the (lack of) audience was embarressing, to say the least. The music presented was brilliant and the interest should have been there from the Brass Band community in that Ron Prussing, SSO's Principal Trombonist is also the MD of Waratah Brass. I counted 5 "brassies" in the audience, including myself. As for the rest of the people who didn't turn up, maybe it is just that because there were no "squeaky things" in the line up, it didn't rate as "proper" music?

As to standard of conductors, I would congratulate the NSW Band Association who held a Conductors Workshop, just prior to the state contest this year. As a conductor with some 16 years experience in both Vocal, Big Band and Brass band disciplines, I must say that I felt it was a very worthwhile exercise. I suspect, that like myself, a lot of conductors have learned their craft from being thrown in at the deep end and with no formal training apart from watching other conductors and reading whatever they can get their hands on.

Andy Snell was clear and precise in his coaching and I suspect that there was not one experienced conductor present, let alone a couple of raw novices who nervously were put through the paces, who didn't learn anything. Good work NSWBA. Do it again!

Ron Boaden
MD - CNL Brass
Cardiff (NSW)

Fendall's Thesis

I couldn't let the editorial on 'apathy' go by with not a single response (due to apathy I guess). The question is asked - Why is it so that audiences are small and members of other bands don't go to listen? I don't have all the answers, but to generate discussion, here are some opinions to be offered up and shot down if necessary.

1.Unfortunately, the banding world is small and doesn't influence many outside of it, so our 'celebrities' are only celebrities in our world, and often in no other sphere. So, our audience for these will be a subset of an already small catchment. Again, this catchment is made up of natural performers who are not necessarily natural spectators - I suspect most are like myself, and fairly 'egotistical' in their concert attendance i.e. "I only go to concerts I'm playing in". Imagine if orchestras had to rely on other orchestras to boost their audiences.

2. Brass bands rely on the 'transfer of music', and little else. Our concerts are typically nothing but instrumental, we do not convey messages via words, dance or actions that affect people, we rely on the power and effect of the music only. Compare that to the emotion of a musical, or a rock concert where these other means of communication are essential through the performance. While energy and 'soul' are expressed through music, audiences react when they are expended in other ways, and will often judge a performance by the presence of the performer rather than the music.

3. Brass bands are limited to a certain sound. Percussion obviously provides incredible variety to this sound, but the 'brass' sound is merely "one bank of sounds" in the musical spectrum. This is probably not helped by the rigid banding instrumentation which must be adhered to in order to contest, so experimentation with new sounds and instrumentation is not encouraged (in fact, it's very inconvenient!) - so we still play to virtually the same pattern that was developed in the 19th Century. Compare that to the orchestras, where the instrumentation changes from piece to piece. A "big change" for brass bands is when the flugel and repiano cornet get to play off separate pieces of music!!

So, considering the topic is a negative one, and all I've said so far is negative, can I suggest some basic areas we could consider to achieve the aim of "Attracting audiences to concerts, which include/incorporate brass bands so that they are affected emotionally, mentally and spiritually, and will want to return again and again for further such experiences". Some words spring to mind:

1. Crossover - A concert needs more than a brass band, and I don't mean a brass soloist, or another brass band!! We need to work in with other musical, vocal and dramatic genres of entertainment, and provide the variety. There are ways bands can work together with such groups to assist them, and them, us. Note of caution - this doesn't mean we try to do other styles of music using only a brass band. We should look at other groups that have success with audiences, and muscle into their scene - invite ourselves.

2. Entertain - Bandies often have other musical, vocal and dramatic talents, draw these out and use them. There is also a lot of comedy to be found in music, just look at Mnozil Brass, Victor Borge. Learn to develop stage presence, use all that energy and rehearsal time we used to put into marching!

3. Experiment - More than just different styles of music, we could think of more interesting combinations of ensembles and start arranging and composing for these. Also, the use of sound systems and amplification techniques can create the effects and balances required to make things more listenable, indoors and out. Dare I say it, some of us could do with a bit of 'reverb' at times, and it can make an already amazing sound just 'out-of-this-world'.

4. Cater to Appetite. People's musical appetites will only last so long, and they need variety of sound and style, and a sense of direction, and emotional input, if you want them to come out and listen to you for more than an hour. By involving other groups, entertaining and experimenting, you can move the pendulum from 'endurement' to 'enjoyment'. Even the best entertainers in the world struggle to fill up two hours on their own and hold people's attention, so why do we presume that we can manage it?

Think of all the concerts (of all kinds) you've been to, there will be some that stand out as being special. What were the things that made those occasions special? We should take those elements and think about what can work for our band. It's not easy, but then again, who is going to sacrifice their time to watch a band do stuff that's easy? Anyway, I hope this mini-thesis helps to contribute to making things better in some way.

Fendall Hill
Waitakere Brass, Auckland

Apathy?

Small audiences? Not my experience with the concerts I have been involved with over the past few years with Frankston and Dandenong Bands in Victoria.. I guess an average of 300 to 400 would be the norm. The biggest problem is affordable prestige venues... people simply do not want to come to a shabby church hall or suchlike. The Drum Theatre at Dandenong and the Arts Centre Frankston are both quite expensive, but a tidy profit can be made with an audience of 300 to 400 if your ticket price for adults is sub $20. Anymore than that and they will stay away in droves.

I think the key to getting bottoms on seats has largely to do with.....

a) The Venue...is it comfortable, easy to get to with plenty of parking and well lit access/egress at night, air conditioned, offer bar facilities etc? Choose a venue that has it's own established mailing list for upcoming events, and that does it's own ticket sales.

b) The type of performance....both Cabaret and concerts with guest artists, and more than one band seem to work. Both the Frankston/Stonnington and the Dandenong/Frankston joint concerts made money, not a lot, but about $650 to each band. (Plus a database of concert goers to sell future events to)

c) Programming... it has to appeal to a wide variety of tastes. Marches are a must, at least two per programme, Solo/Group items featuring young (or at least young looking) talented players playing tunes that are well known (in other words not Air Varie) are popular. Toe tapping numbers and classical favourites are also in demand..... but NOT the latest testpiece! make it varied and enjoyable and people will come back for more. Two concerts per year in the SAME venue is enough. Make the venue familiar so that people are comfortable to return.

d) The timing. Sunday afternoon is popular, especially in the Winter when there isn't much one can do outdoors, and older citizens like to be home before dark. Friday night is a no-no, apart from Bandspersons rushing home from work or school to get there on time the audience also has similar problems. Too many other things clash with Saturday such as sports, TV etc., so Sunday afternoon is possibly the best choice.

Our next event at the Frankston Arts Centre, featuring both separately and combined with Guest Artists the Australian Boys Choir promises to be a great concert with good numbers of tickets already sold by the venue not counting those that the bands and choir will bring in. This is on Sun. Oct. 22 at 2pm. Tickets $16.50 & $12.50 from Frankston Arts Centre 03 9784 1060 (Unashamed Plug!)

Players from other bands do come to our concerts, not in large numbers but there are always 10 to 20. Remember that if you want other bands to support your concert it behoves you to attend theirs. It is a Quid Pro Quo!

Apathy? What's that when it's at home?

Kevin Morgan
Melbourne

Not enough ensembles

The problem of not having enough opportunities for up & coming conductors is simply that there are simply not enough ensembles, whether they be Bands, Choirs or Orchestras.

Many aspiring conductors, including myself have formed their own ensembles to conduct, usually starting from a small group of friends, and if it fires up then more are added from friends of friends etc.

I founded The Melbourne Sinfonia in 1990 with just 7 string players, and gave our first concert with 13. It is still going strong with 40 plus members.Although I am no longer involved I still follow their progress with interest.

See http://www.melbournesinfonia.org.au/

Kevin Morgan
Melbourne

Bands People Apathy

Responding to your October editorial the lack of bands people supporting their own is not confined to Australia or indeed New Zealand.

Having promoted concerts for the bands I have played with as well as the National Youth Brass Band of NZ (in NZ and UK) and the National Band of NZ it is not an easy task getting bums on seats, especially our own people.

Some of it is down to the fact many bands people are already committing themselves two nights a week for rehearsals, with performances on top of this. Many a bandsman has said to me "I love practicing and performing with my own band but I don't go to any other concerts of any other artists". Some of these same people are top players and have obviously learnt their craft from LP's, CD's and NOT by hearing great music live! Just joking here.

I am of the opinion that you can learn so much from listening to all musicians in any genre. I know Kevin Jarrett is of the same opinion and he travels widely to hear orchestras and other artists outside brass bands.

Marketing a music event is not an easy task and requires many skills and many failures before you get the odd win - a win is a full house, a great musical experience and a memorable evening. Many good promoters who run brass band concert series get their events to a mature stage and do not worry about lack of support from fellow musicians as they have a good product that others like, enjoy and will pay good money for. You never know you might even attract the odd bandsman thats curious why all his/her friends are not at the pub !

You can learn more and one site that I subscribe to is www.fuel4arts.com; which is an Australian hosted site which is relevant to all arts promoters any where. It provides regular monthly email links to forums and real life case studies from promoters in the industry on how to build databases and get those punters and keep them. Check it out - its free.

Owen Melhuish
Christchurch NZ

VBL Executive...the untouchables?

Despite my own and Kathy Clarks comments two or three weeks ago, absolutely no response on here from the VBL. Perhaps they individually and/or collectively do not look at 4BRDU or Spitvalve. Perhaps they will only answer letters received through the proper channels from the member bands. I know several of the executive and they are really nice people, doing an unenviable job. Get your bands to write in with their comments, and see if that elicits a response. If not then I guess we are losing an unwinnable battle.

Kevin Morgan
Melbourne

Bands deserve better

The Victorian State competitions have been screwed around by the VBL - changing the date, last minute adjudicators, and withholding of information.

Surely the bands deserve better treatment!

Gavin Gibson
Bendigo

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