Comments ~ 2007: July

Encouraging new talent; Better late than never; Audience problems and even the prickly one of more women needed...

Encouraging new talent

I have just read your news item concerning the 2007 Scottish Open Championships and must congratulate the organisers for taking the decision to ask the composer of the test piece (Peter Meechan) to adjudicate with Steven Mead.

If we are to encourage new talent then we must give it its head. Steven we know a great deal about of course (and he did make some wonderfully accurate comments on the performances at Preston on 4BR) but Peter really is a talent for the future both as a composer and it seems, a judge.

The bands shouldn’t have any complaints come the results!

Paul Linton
Wembley 

Better late than never

Enjoyed the podcast from New Zealand lads, but one query? Why did it take so long to put up? We know about jet lag but this did take a while - is it really that far from Wales to Auckland or did you stop off somewhere on the way back?

Still, enjoyed the comments and the interviews. Hope to see you next year too! 

Peter Wilson
Auckland   

Audiences - a world wide problem

Interesting to see that the New Zealand nationals had the same problem in getting people to attend their contest as did the organisers of the English Nationals in Preston a few weeks ago. 

Perhaps that tells us that it is not just the British who are fed up with the so called ‘traditional way’ in which we present brass bands to the general public. I wonder if they too are run by the same type of people who believe that the format of contestrig must never be changed. Theirs hasn’t it seems according to 4BR since about 1900!

Ian James

More women needed

Liz Simpson may have written her comments with her tongue firmly in her cheek, but she does strike a chord with many women who have been asked to attend the draw at contests.

Why do men love dressing up in a polyester blazer and nylon tie for a band contest when for the rest of their lives they will happily walk around in an old sweatshirt and pair of jeans? It is a bit like an old boys club at times – although I must say the manners are very good. The organisers at most contests are still very poor at arranging dressing rooms for women and girls separate from the men though.

Perhaps a few more strong willed women could organise things a bit better – and the dress sense would certainly improve!

Kate Stephens
North Walsham 

March Lorraine

Rick Staherski of Lancaster British Brass Band wanted to know where to get copies of Louis Ganne's March Lorraine. Just Music have it - Cat. No.JM30509

Parts and score £15.
 
Peter Wade
(Portugal) still an avid reader!! 

Do we need a license?
 
Could you solve a discussion. Do Brass Bands need a public entertainment license / Public liability insurance to perform in a public place.
ie : a summer concert in the Park.

Steven Blight

4BR Reply:
All we can recommend is that you contact your local authority and ask there. We belive ethe organiser will need one, but not the band themselves. 

Emotional bias? 

You continue to provide an excellent service for which I'm very grateful. Your site is informative and yet entertaining. Thank you.
 
On a more pertinent note, 2 months ago I asked about the criteria for reducing ranking figures having identified that there appeared to be a few oversights. It may be that Whit Friday contest results do not fit your list of contests from which marks are given, however, some bands are still being reduced more than others - why? There's even one band who hasn't competed for 12 months and yet treated 'respectfully'.  I've no objection to emotional bias - how can I being a musician, but it would be appreciated if all bands were treated accordingly.
 
I know that this will be seen as a negative comment but having identified the issue I was surprised to see no change or even consideration of review. I'm sure this particular part of your site causes more issues than any other but we all endeavour not only to survive but also to improve and this is one of the few sites to identify real progress.
 
Andrew White
Milnrow Band

4BR Reply:
There is no bias - emotional or otherwise in the rankings Andrew. There may appear some anomalies, but no system is perfect. We believe it is as accurate a reflection of the strengths of bands over a period of time, although we are always open to suggestions to how people may think it can be improved further.

Why so high Whitburn?

Regarding the 4barsrest rankings in Scotland. Would you so kindly explain to me how Whitburn Band continue to be ranked above Kirkintilloch, even after the Regional win, Whitburn’s no-show at the Masters and the recent defeat in the West Lothian semi-final.

Alex Ramsay

4BR Reply:
We would refer you to the explanaition on the 4BR site Alex - and the one above.  

Midlands on the up

After so many years in the wilderness, it is pleasing to see so many Midlands bands climbing the rankings table.

Desford, for so long a proud and successful band, must be pleased to see the local competition on their coat-tails and giving them a run for their money? Staffordshire must surely break into the top 20 rankings before too long, and so good to see GUS back to strength!  Bands such as Newstead, Ransomes, Sovereign, Jaguar and Kibworth, are all proving to be worthy representatives of the Midlands area.

The best news is, that many 1st section bands are building in strength and consistency and will surely contribute to make the Midlands area an area to respect and acknowledge as a true 'National' force. Well done bands!

Mark Smith
Walsall

Anyone seen a girl from Men O' Brass

Does anyone remember from the early 70’s a girl by the name of Catherine Howells playing with in the Men O’ Brass concerts under Harry Mortimer. She was featured as a young cornet soloist performing Alleluia and Hailstorm. Does anyone know of her whereabouts or what became of her?

An ex Men O’ Brass colleague

Stuart Morgan

A list of the Euphonium winners?

I curious to know if there is a published list of the winners of the Euphonium Player of the Year.  Is there a place on the internet or book with this information?

Robert Pendergast
(USA)

4BR Reply:
We will check it out. There have been plenty of famous winners, but we don't seem to have the definitive list - yet!

Thanks lads for NZ - a question of understanding

Just a note to thank 4BR for coming out to cover the New Zealand Nationals. Loved the humour and the acerbic observations on the test piece.

For anyone to understand this work you really do need to get inside the head of Derek Bourgeois. I agree – it is a very black and subversive musical humour and something your comments, even though tongue I cheek, picked up on brilliantly. I am also sure lots wouldn’t have liked them, although most wouldn’t have known what the test piece was on about anyway!

Thanks again – sorry I couldn’t meet you at the contest.

David Nelson
Auckland

Comments are a joke
 
Are you two taking the p**s or something?? The live comments that have been posted so far, (Hymn & Test), for the New Zealand Nationals are a joke. There is more automotive and alcohol references then there are to instruments and MUSIC. Have a read of Ben Crockers comments for the D grade, so much more in depth. You could learn something from this young man.
 
Lay off the booze during lunch fellas and try to do better tomorrow.
 
John Hamilton
Brolga Brass
Townsville

Grossly inappropriate
 
This is not the nicest email. I won't pretend it is.
 
I found your coverage and comments on the performances of the bands at the NZ National contest quite inadequate and at times grossly inappropriate.
 
NZ is not the UK and it is unfair to judge some of the bands in such a way. Granted, there are some bands such as Dalewool and Woolston that take themselves very seriously but as a general rule many bands in NZ cannot do this. I know of relatively few people in NZ who play brass the fully commit their lives to music. Most have full time jobs completely unrelated to music. In general (and I am well aware of the many exceptions) in NZ brass bands are a hobby. Also most bands struggle to get players and a number of bands (even in the A grade) have many very young and very inexperienced players within their ranks.
 
In such cases it is astounding that a band should even be able to play a test piece such as Concerto 1 and the satirical comments from your reporter are just a kick in the teeth to people that have put in a lot of effort and improved a great deal. In bands such as these (and there are a few) the band is usually held together by a few integral players, those who turn up every week, who help the young kids to improve, who may themselves not be jaw-droppingly amazing players but are reliable and committed to what they do.
 
There is not a lot of reward for these people. Its not likely that their band will ever win or that they will get the sort of recognition they deserve and it would be very easy for your comments to dishearten these people.
 
If people like these were to be lost to "banding" or even just lose their enthusiasm for "banding" it would be a great loss to their band (who most likely would not be able to replace them) and to Brass Bands in NZ as a whole. They are an integral part of the movement and the support and training grounds they provide for younger players is invaluable.
 
So all I am suggesting is that next time you listen to a NZ Band take a moment to think about who the people are and what they are up against. By no means am I suggesting that you pretend a band played better than it did and I certainly don't suggest that you "talk down to them" but it would not hurt for your comments to reflect a little of the respect these people.
 
On a completely different note (and I really don't care if you take any notice of this or not) i found the language used in your comments quite strange. The prolific use of metaphors made it sound more like an outlet for a failed novelist than a contest report. Less is more. Some were even slightly amusing but really..... there is a saturation point for bird humour
 
Yours sincerely
Clare
 

Thanks Grimey

On Saturday 7th July, Bacup was treated to a brilliant festive musical occasion when a capacity audience filled the Royal Court Theatre to listen to the Grimethorpe Band conducted by Garry Cutt, sponsored by the 2nd Rossendale Scout Group Band.

Without going through the whole programme, suffice it to say that there was music to suit everyone's taste. From the casual listener to the aficionado, (and there were plenty of each!), we were thrilled by the virtuosity of all the band.

The soloists were incredible, the band phenomenal, Kevin Crockford on soprano out of this world. The trombones were en song and the bass section was just awesome! I spoke after the concert to people for whom this was their first championship section band concert and they were just blown away.

Quite literally the finale "Entry of the Gods into Valhalla" was breathtaking in its intensity! However, and just to keep their feet firmly set upon terra firma, I think that even they would admit they were outdone by the scout band in the shirt department, and you would have had to have been there to appreciate that! Perhaps on a more serious note, over £400-00 was raised for the Brass Band Aid charity, and that was really what the night was all about. Our American guests enjoyed the night and I hope Grimethorpe did too.

So To all the players and the staff at the theatre, and especially to Grimethorpe a big thank you for a wonderful night!

D. Walsh

The standard to get into a brass band?

Approximately what standard of playing ability is required to get into a Brass Band?
 
I live out in Germany and my nearest brass band is over 2 hours away, so I have to be content, for now in playing with 2 concert/wind bands. 1 English, 1 German.
 
As a child I played trumpet and baritone in a marching band. After a 20 year break I starting playing euphonium again, to help out a friend, after a year and gaining grade 4, the said friend asked me to swap to EEb tuba. 12 months on I am now grade 4 on the tuba (grade 5 in Nov. hopefully).
 
Hopefully I will return to the UK, probably to Lancashire, in about 2 years time, by which time I hope to be at least a grade 7 if not higher.
 
I will have to learn treble clef for the tuba I know, as I presently play in bass clef.
 
I see so many vacancies for tuba players especially if I was to re-train and play BBb. I just would not know at what standard/level band I should attempt to join.
 
I would greatly appreciate any feedback you could give me.
 
Eddie Briggs

4BR Reply:
The standard varies greatly Eddie - and depends on just what level of banding you wish to play at in the future. Just keep practicing and in 2 years we think you could have a very wide choice indeed.

floccinaucinihilpilification tredegar

It has come to the attention of me and my friend that if you enter the words "floccinaucinihilpilification tredegar" into the google search engine you are the only website that comes back as a result.

It would be greatly appreciated if you would now find your own googlewhack. To be clear a googlewhack is no more than two words that bring back one and only one result on google.

It is a necessity that you provide us with a googlewhack in order for us to carry on our quest.

Chris Walters and Adam Bell,
Tredegar

4BR Reply:
We are literally speechless...

Anyone seen the Chop Sauce?

I  was  searching the  net  trying  to find  Hammonds  Chop Sauce and somehow  I  found  this  web site.

Apparently  Hammonds Company  made  the  Trophy  Owl and then it burned  down. One webchat forum  said it  has  begun  manufacturing  their  famous  chop sauce  again.      

I can’t find the sauce anywhere in the US.  Do you know if the manufacturers plant has been rebuilt in Aylesbury  in Bucks? It is also rumoured that  McCormick  UK LTD   may  now be manufacturing  it.   It's  too  expensive  to  call all over  from Los  Angeles  California  to  the  UK ...  and  the  internet  isn't that  easy.

Could  you  give  it  a try  &  see if  you  can  find out anything?

Mike Melo 
USA      
ps ... Have  you  ever  seen  Hammonds Chop  Sauce  in  the  market  ?

4BR Reply:
Try and contact the nearest Asda, Tesco or Morrisons in Keighly Yorkshire and we are sure they will have a bottle or two!

Blazers and old boys network

Interesting point by P.Hunter. Maybe if band blazers, ties etc were banned from the draw , then those of us who are not a band member but just a loyal supporter/mug who volunteers to attend the draw, wouldn't feel they were intruding on some old boys network?

Just a tongue in cheek comment, but if you want to attract a wider audience perhaps some of the more archaic practices at band contests could do with being reviewed?

Liz Simpson
Supporter
Reg Vardy Band

Apologies from Rothwell
 
In reply to Mr H. Smythe of Chiswick, the text he highlighted from my website had already been removed by the time I read his comment.

My intention was to simply to highlight the fact that at the time the contest invites were being given out, Hepworth were towards the bottom of the list, and that they were invited because others declined their places.

My underlying thought process was that the rankings were perhaps not a very good way of working out which bands to invite to the contest if you want to find the champion band of England.

It was pointed out to me that the statement could be construed to be as light against the band and I removed it for that reason.  My contest write-ups often go through several edits after they have been posted.  I am not a professional journalist and my intentions do not always come across in my writing, hence why I ask others to read and comment so it can be improved and made clearer.  My apologies to anyone who took offence to the comment, it was never intended as such.

My congratulations go to Hepworth and to all the other prize winners on Saturday.  Unlike a lot of bandsmen, I listened to several performances and I thought Hepworth's was good, but I am only a "shed builder" so my opinion is not worth much - I tend not to comment on how good I thought other bands played in a write up.

Tim Sawyer
Percussion
Rothwell Temperance Band

Tea towel offer

Not sure that we deserve your  bias comments Mr Tom Helliwell, however, in the name of friendship please forward your address and I will post you a complimentary Hepworth Band tea towel to help wipe the egg off your face.

David Horan
Hepworth (Lanson Homes) Band

Rankings effect

Could you advise how the rankings would be affected by the English Nationals?
 
Jason Poulston

4BR Reply:
The rankings will be updated as soon as possible - so keep your eyes peeled.

Late developer?
 
Really pleased to see the article on the new MD at the Cheshire Constabulary Band, Dave is a really nice lad and I'm sure will be a great asset to them.

However given his lawful career I feel I may just question his accuracy with the line "begun his ADULT playing career in 1985"  if this is true he must have been a late developer as I played for the band from about 1987 and Dave was a stalwart by then who seemed to have been around a lot longer.  

Best of luck Dave, who ever said photographs don't lie obviously hadn't heard of paintshop pro.......!!!!

Andy Wood 

A bit of thought?

Just a question to the organisers. A pre draw is a great idea to help the bands, but why was it that at this draw the three judges were presented to the bands that were to take part only in the first part of the contest – numbers 1 – 8, and not all the representatives as is usually the case.

As they were standing there in band jackets, ties and blazers with their band names all over them, didn’t it strike the organisers that it could have shown the judges just which 8 bands were in the first part of the draw and which ones weren’t? Not questioning anyone’s integrity here, but a bit of thought surely should have been given.

P. Hunter

Enjoying it up to a time

After enjoying the English National Championship contest at the Guild Hall on Saturday I was dismayed to find that the results were not going to be announced until after the Gala Concert.

Everything was so good until then – great bands, a test piece to enjoy and even a break for lunch (although that was a bit too long perhaps). The contest ended at 5.00pm and then we had to wait until 8.00pm to get the results.

Why couldn’t the Gala Concert take place right away? In the end I had enough and went home and got the results off 4BR.  It was a disappointing end to what had been a fine day up until then.

Trevor Linton

£20 a ticket? No wonder the numbers were down

I was one of the few people in the Preston Guild Hall on Saturday. It wasn’t surprising, however, that there were so few people in the audience at £20 per ticket.
 
Whilst I enjoyed the music (well, most of it) the day was spoiled by the strange timing arrangements made by the organisers.  Firstly, why such a long break for lunch? Were the adjudicators going for five courses or what?

Secondly, and perhaps more seriously, why, when the last band came off stage at about ten to five did those with enough patience have to wait until nearly eight o’clock for the results?
 
They didn’t do themselves many favours at all or win new friends to support the contest. Perhaps they may reflect after the dust has settled and made better arrangements for 2008.
 
Lastly many congratulations to Grimey and Allan Withington.
 
Mike Hanson

Predictions right!

Congratulations to Steven Mead on his 'live' comments and analysis of each of the bands at the English Nationals on the weekend.

Constructive and accurate and he ends up with much the same top six as the three men in the box too. It makes you wonder what all the fuss was about in the first place.

Hope 4BR uses him again - and so too the English Nationals.

Lizzie Drew
Dunchurch

Predictions wrong! 
 
Looks like someone's prediction was a bit wrong! (Tom Helliwell - June comments)
 
"But why on earth predict Hepworth to beat Rothwell? I heard them both at the Masters and if Rothwell had got an earlier draw they would probably have won, whereas Hepworth looked for the nearest exit after their rendition.

I predict Rothwell to beat Hepworth, but not only that, to show that they really are a band to be reckoned with and maybe even come higher up the list that you have them."
 
 
1. Grimethorpe Colliery, Allan Withington
2. Hepworth (Lanson Homes), Mark Bentham
3. PolySteel, Philip Harper
                  -------
13. Sellers International, Phillip McCann
14. Rothwell Temperance, David Roberts
15. Mount Charles, Andrew Duncan

Claire Hudson
Hepworth Band

Lacking in class
 
I wonder if Mr Tom Helliwell would care to pass comment on this weekend's English Nationals in light of his 'Why on earth predict Hepworth to beat Rothwell?' diatribe, as printed on this very page last week?!

I listened to every single band yesterday and whilst I thought 14th was harsh on Rothwell, Hepworth were fabulous and were clearly the next best after Grimethorpe who were outstanding. As a lower section player and an avid follower of top level banding, I am also somewhat disappointed by some of the bitchiness which goes on between top bands.

I often find it interesting to look at band websites to see how they report contest results and am often surprised at the lack of humility shown. I noted the following on Rothwell's website:

"Second place was awarded to Hepworth, a band who would probably not have been included in the contest had Grimethorpe accepted their initial invitation and the field been limited to fourteen bands as expected." No further comment! No congratulations, no concession that they played superbly.

A little disrespectful and lacking in class for me. Why do some bands (and I make a general point, not just in relation to these particular comments) find it so hard to say 'well done' to others? Ok, there are intense rivalries, especially at the very highest level, but a bit of humility would not go amiss sometimes. As a listener rather than a participant I am able to be objective, and this objectivity is a wonderful thing. Rothwell were superb at the Yorkshire Area in 2006. Hepworth were superb on 'Isaiah 40' this year.

They are both top class bands and it is disappointing that there appears to be petty needle between some top bands. It's a band contest - give credit where it's due, put it to bed, wake up the next day and get on with life!

If Grimey win the 2008 Euros, only the most pedantic and miserable of souls will be saying 'First place went to a band who shouldn't have ever been there because they got into the 2007 English through the back door and won the thing'.

H. Smythe
Chiswick

What six weeks really means
 
Six weeks in which to practice a test piece??

At least it will mean ONLY 6 weeks of test piece amendments……..won’t it?????
 
Heather Smyth
United Co op 2000

^back to top